Page 1 of 1

need some answers on chiropractic manipulations

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:08 am
Hi,Thanks for your encouragement and support it has really helped.I have booked an appointment with the spine clinic in Vancouver BC Canada, I live about an hour away from vancouver in the town of Abbotsford.I am starting with first going to pyhsiotherapy and once I get the green light I will download deans book and start to rebuild my back.I wonder if anyone coulds answer a couple of questions regarding spinal manipulation of the lumbar and thorasic spine.

1) can a chiro break a naturally fused vertabre joint in the lumbar area with manipulation and if this happened would there be pain immediatly?

2)I had my first adjustment on april 01/06 second adjustment on april 03/06 why did it take about two days post chiro lumbar roll treatment for my lower back to explode with pain.

3)Why was I having mind crippling pain in my saddle area and why now 5.5 months later I still have pain in my lower lumbars if I sit for more than 5 minutes it is not anything like the pain pre operation(bi-lateral disketomy L5/S1) and I also notice numbness in my feet as I am sitting does this sound like I may have suffered some neurological damage.

4)If I lay flat on my back my arms sometimes go numb and I cannot sleep on my back like I use to do pre chiro adjustment

5)My spine just above my lumbars has never felt right since these high velocity low amplitute adjustments the only way to describe it is that before the chiro manipulated me I never even noticed my back now it feels like things are not in the right place it feels kind of like a pushing kinda pressure nervy kinda pain and my whole lower back feels incredible weak and frail,can the spine be moved out of its normal alignment or is this impossible. With these symtoms how long before my back will return to normal while doing RYB,I know this is difficult to answer but I am wondering if my back is not to far gone to rebuild I guess I am full of apprehension and anxieties and looking for answer and hope.

I know these a very medical questions and I am not expecting a complete diagnosis but if anyone has a little knowledge that would at least put my mind at ease just a little, thanks for allowing me to use your forum, Dave

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:18 pm
by randolph
You've asked some very interesting questions, Dave. Glad you have come to ask them here. You might also go to chirotalk (see web address in "Resources" link on RYB homepage) and post them in their forum. They have a specific, EZ-2-find, place in the forum to ask your questions, and they'll be read and answered by medical professionals.

In the meantime, I'll weigh in with my 2 cents worth.

1. It would be very difficult, but not impossible, for a DC's adjustment to break bone, or cause significant, vertebral misalignment. Basically, all the DC is doing is "cracking" your vertebral joints, like cracking your knuckle joints, to make that popping sound. Dr. McGill conducted tests to see how much pressure was necessary to break or move vertebral bone. It's more than most people can even apply with their hands, arms, and legs. Not impossible ... but a whole lot more than is generally applied by a DC.

2. I'm assuming you had MRI's taken after the DC, but before the microdiscectomy? Sometimes it is possible to see how old an injury is from the MRIs ... and it might be possible to see how much the DC contributed to your lower back disorder. While it's very tempting to believe that because your horrible pain began just 2 days after the adjustments, that the DC "caused" the pain, time-coincidence is not very good proof. In my own case, my sciatica started quite suddenly 2 days after 3 DC adjustments, but I'm pretty sure that while his adjustments were the last thing my already, sore back needed, they were just the "last straw that broke the camel's back", the last microtrauma after many years of subtle abuse. That disc was ready to rupture before the DC, and most likely would have ruptured at that time, even without the DC's messing around down there. I was doing a lot of strenuous, back-unfriendly activity everyday, back then; it was just a matter of time before the disc ruptured.

3. The pains you are experiencing (numbness in feet, difficulty sitting very long) are very typical of sciatica. Yes, that does indicate possible damage to the sciatic nerve; but that doesn't mean permanent damage. Nerves do heal IF (and this is a big if) you reduce further activities to a minimum that irritate the nerve. You can't just lay in bed, immobile, though. Nerve healing apparently is promoted, largely, by moderate stretching and exercising, done without irritating the nerve (you definitely feel a zing if you've gone too far!!).

4. Can't comment on the sleep disorder.

5. It's really difficult to say how much your back can heal, or how long before your back is healed as much as it can. But it's a cinch to find out: give the PT you are given by your care-givers, and RYB, your best efforts. It depends on so many factors like age, weight, fitness, mental attitude, and how effective you do the PT. Certainly months. But more important, is making steady improvement week-to-week. When you start to see improvements like lessening of the stiffness and pain in response to your PT exercises, your main concern will probably be how to continue steady improvement, not how long it takes. At least, that's how it's worked for me the last year. But one thing is for sure: this horrible pain you're suffering from now is not permanent, and it will pass.

Hope this helps, some. Randolph

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:49 pm
by Dean
I agree with what randolph is saying.

I am about to put the finishing touches on an article about how chiropractic damages your spine so I can get it up on the site. It should answer quite a few of your questions.


Thanks for the feed back and I look forward to the artical

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:25 pm
My main injury was I had hyper-extended my back water-sking about 15 years ago and since that time my back was a little bit of a bother,I mentioned this to the chiro quackter but he just shrugged it off and blamed my minor lower back pain on disc narrowing and he said he wanted to get everything moving again,thats when the excruciating pain started,it was a really wierd pain,through my groin area it felt like he ripped muscles and ligaments and sometimes when I would sit to long I would just go out of my mind trying to deal with this horrible nervy pain.I kinda fell like the old hyper-extension injury caused me to have more mobility in my spine and with his manipulations just pushed the vertabres to far and streched and tore the ligaments more,In simple laymans no medical experience but some minor fire rescue first aid ideas I believe he horrible sprained my back,just my theory.I can sit longer now with some minor discomfort but when I lay on my back it feels like the vertabres in my lower back are barely connected to each other sounds odd but I cannot describe it any other way seems like they have alot of play and not a tight unit anymore, just my imagination, not sure? well enough about me and thanks so much for this forum dean it has given me so much hope through this incredibly dark 5.5 months,and I look forward to hearing from randolph as well and who ever wants to throw there two cents in,thanks again,Dave

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:30 pm
by randolph
Gosh, Dave ... no wonder you're anxious, with all those painful and unusual symptoms and no clear idea what's going on.
Can you get some professional medical diagnosis? Maybe from the surgeon who did your micrdiscectomy? Was an MRI done prior to surgery that you might be able to get evaluated, to see if the DC really did injure you?
If no MRI was done recently, can you get one done? If I approached my GP with your litany of symptoms, I guarantee you he'd have me in for any and all tests necessary to get to the bottom of this, and he'd make sure all were covered by the insurance carrier. Do you have a GP who can help you find the specialists you'll need to see?

There's nothing like a few good facts to put to rest a lot of nagging uncertainty.

And now, knowing that you were injured in your lower back 15 years ago, that the DC completely dirsregarded that important fact during his "diagnosis", and that there was pain immediately after the DC's spinal manipulations, it appears there's a much greater likelihood that the DC did indeed hurt you. But you're still going to need some proof like an MRI ... especially if you're thinking of seeking a malpractice suit against this possibly incompetent DC.


response to randolph

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:05 pm
Hi Randolph,I am just waiting to hear back from a spine clinic in vancouver,I have sent them my mri and x-ray(mri and x-ray where just my lumbar area) and bone scan images plus they wanted a detailed history report,I am presently waiting to hear from the clinic this week if they can do a full mri of my back and as well as a full x-ray of my back to find out what the heck happened during these adjustments,.THIS IS A HIGHLY SPECIALIZED CLINIC DEALING WITH ACUTE BACK PAIN DISORDERS, the surgeon that did my bi-lateral disktomoy(L5/S1) only focused on my lumbars because this painful area overode the pain from my thorasic area of the spine ,When I phoned the chiro on the thursday of the week of his adjusting my spine and described my symtoms he said we waited to long between adjustments so I need to get in ASAP I said to him look I am trusting you, are you sure and he said get in here as quick as you can so like a fool I went in for one more death blow to my crippled back,he finally at least looked at my back and then he sounded really nervous and mentioned something being fused as he was feeling around my lower lumbar vertabres and then he lumbar rolled me AGAIN.I FEEL LIKE THE VILLAGE IDIOT !!! in my life I have tried to make the right choices and live a life that trusts to some degree and respects people but my decision to trust in this chiro was an absolutely fatal decision,my friends recommened him and both him and his wife(shes a nurse) go to this quack ,my friend booked the appointement for me with this quack. I live every day with this horrible misjudgement,I am only 42 years old I HOPE some answer can be found so I can salvage my life.My GP has been very involved with finding a fix and when I saw him after my injury(I had not seen my GP in three years no need to my back was only a little bit of a bother)he said with the acute pain I had it looked like my back was in 50 car accidents,so thanks for your encouragement,dave


PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:05 pm
Hi, I hope I am not taking advantage of this forum but everything I have documented in these past posts is 100% true I know it seems hard to believe but as I am typing this message I am crying and I can feel how much my back aches and the sad reality sets in,I have been fighting this pain monster for 5.5 months now it is a battle I refuse to lose and cannot afford to lose but slowly reality sinks in and I find it so hard to fight another battle in this pain war,I would love one day to have a feeling of ah ah it seems like the edge has come off the pain but sadly each day more pain and constant running through my mind why why why did I go to the chiro this thought is always there I cannot let it rest,I am under a good psychiatrists care but it is so hard to turn off your brain,I am usually not an anxious and scared person but these lasts months have pushed me to the edge of sanity and almost beyond,I warn people now about how one bad decision when your BS DETECTOR is not working can really change your life,changed mine, I really appreciate this forum at least I can share my story and if it only prevents other people from going through what I have gone through it is worth it. 5.5 months ago my life was excellent,it was saying Dave theres the world learn,grow ,love life spoil your widowed mom(she would make the best homemade buns every saturday) and take joy in all your nieces and nephews adventures,I loved my job and firefighting and enjoyed going to starbucks and having a non-fat caramel latte.picking blackberries,calling a friend,going for a drive basically a blessed life.Now my future is PAIN and worry and anxiety, these are not familiar to me with just a feeling of complete despair,I cannot describe this blanket that has covered me and I pray every day for the ability to cope,somebody reading this might say what a whimp, a little backache, pick-up and move on,thats the point I am trying to make,I have had an aching back before but just imagine back trauma from a chiropractor that a morphine shot Should give you relief. I have no idea how I made it through another day but I have friends and family who are carrying me and praying for me,thanks again dean for your site this is very helpful for me. If my back continues to ache and I am getting no answers in Canada I will definitely look at the SOAR CLINIC or ask you which direction I should go because I have in just these last few days being on your site gained a real trust in your advice,I wish many times that I would have discovered your site 6 months ago, would have saved me from going through this hellish nightmare. So please fill free to give me any advice. thanks, Dave P.S I was going to put my phone number in as well but maybe down the road. I am going to bed now(the last 5 months the only thing that makes me sleep at night is 30mg of oxzapam but with this comes being addicted to this stuff and you wake -up not feeling good) I HAVE THIS TERRIBLE NIGHTMARE THAT THIS WILL BE MY LIFE

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:10 pm
by randolph
Hello Dave

I seriously doubt anyone here has any problem with your use of the forum to ask for help, like you are doing ... and the last thing anyone here would call you is a wimp. Seems to me like you're where many of us have been: hurting.

Hopefully soon, you'll be getting some info from that Vancouver spine clinic. We hear a lot of conflicting stories down here in the states about the long waits required to receive medical care in countries with government run health systems (a relative in the U.K. had to go to a private lab and personally pay to get an MRI after finding it would take 3 years before the state lab would be able to do the MRI). Will that spine clinic be contacting you soon?

I checked at chirotalk and read their responses to your questions.
1. Will you be receiving diagnosis from an orthopedist? If you do, it might be helpful to remember that their main training is in using surgery to fix back problems ... so keep in mind you might get some pressure to consider surgery above other options. But hopefully, they will be offering you surgery as one option among others ... and only after more conservative treatments, like PT, have been tried and failed.
2. Are you considering filing a malpractice lawsuit against the DC who may likely have injured you? It's quite a process to do so down here; in fact, it's almost impossible unless the DC actually killed or horribly crippled the patient. There are folks at chirotalk and also at chirobase who have legal knowledge you can access.

Last year I went through 5 weeks of debilitating back and leg pain, that had me depressed, anxious, and entertainling thoughts of suicide . That is certainly not enough to know fully the great amount of suffering you are presently going thru, and have been thru the last 6 months ... but maybe some of the things I did to get thru might help you, anyway, as you wait for the clinic's information.

It really helped to find out as much as I could about my illness and the various treatment options available. Lots to learn about chiropractic at chirotalk. Lots to learn about the reliability of various treatment options at chirobase. Lots to learn about just what is available out there, on the internet.

And for a break from that serious research, I did lots of light reading, like biographies of personal heros, and stuff about things I was just curious about.

Lastly, is your pain reduced enough to try some of the beginning RYB exercises? As difficult as it was for me to begin doing the exercises, it was really the most helpful thing I did ... even if I could do only 1 rep of a particular exercise in a day.

And, oh yes, (if you're not doing it already) lavish your friends and family with gratitude for all the help they are giving you.

Hope this helps some. Randolph