Hi guys,
I was talking to my doctor the other day and I asked him what he thought about chiropractors. He just rolled his eyes, but didn't really want to comment. But I got the drift. So then I asked him why some orthopedic surgeons actually have these quacks operating out of their clinics?
His response was that the surgeons need the chiropractors to provide them with a source of surgical patients. You can read into that whatever you want.
Ned
Surgeons and Chiropractors
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luckychucky
guess we do things different in the south,,,
Here in Kentucky, we are as involved in the spinal decompression thing as everyone else, except around here, the MD's & DC's seem to interested in what will work best for the patient. Might be a strange concept to some, but we have more then our share of health problems in Kentucky, we are more interested in just working together as professionals and caring people. Need to make money? Sure we do, but we also like to sleep at night. Examples? Last fall a surgon sent a patient to the local chiropractor who had the only spinal decompression in the area. This patient had been referred to the surgon by a nuroligist. After all xrays, mri's, and exams had been reviewed, and phone calls made to each other, the patient was schedualed for 20 treatment of spinal decompression. The patient condition was monitored by the neurosurgon. Before the treatments were through, the patient was no longer a candidate for surgery. Patient, and all three health professionals are happy because as a team, the patient was helped in the safest and most effective fashion. Should point out that since then two patients have been referred to the neurosurgon by the chiropractor because he felt they may be true candidates for surgery. It all sounds like a fairy tale I know, but sure makes one feel good to know that there are doctors out there who care enough to put differences aside and think about the best interest of the patient.... yes, everything can be documented, not that that would change anything......
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luckychucky
as fer the spelllin
we dont all spell this bad here in Tucky, just couldnt get the spel cheker to work on hear,,,,,
Hi luckychucky
Nice to hear the good reports. Not so sure your good fortune in Kaintuck' has so much to do with being in the South as it does just plain good luck. Here in the hill country (formerly moonshine country) of NC, the nicest chiropractor you'd ever want to meet (fish symbol in his phonebook ad, Bibles in the waiting room, etc) injured me ... and after investigating what legal recourse I had for mistakes he would not take responsibility for, I found that the laws regulating DCs in NC were written by DCs. Guess how much liability they volunteered to accept for their mistakes? So much for the good ol' South.
My GP is a very knowlegable fellow, and during the acute phase of my sciatica referred me to an osteopathic surgeon, who was very ready and willing to cut on me ... without offering any encouragement to try physical therapy or giving me a realistic appraisal of the potential risks of surgery. Thankfully, I was doing some of my own research and discovered options to surgery. Maybe the surgery would have worked out OK and I'd be praising my GP and OD, but I recovered with more conservative treatments options (PT mostly).
So I wish we did things differently down here. So far the differences I've discovered seem pretty trivial (y'all comin' down to the chicken-q?). But I think I get your main point - some folks do care, and are doing a good job. Yet, even though I'm in the South, I'm inclined to remember caveat emptor on all financial transactions.
Randolph
Nice to hear the good reports. Not so sure your good fortune in Kaintuck' has so much to do with being in the South as it does just plain good luck. Here in the hill country (formerly moonshine country) of NC, the nicest chiropractor you'd ever want to meet (fish symbol in his phonebook ad, Bibles in the waiting room, etc) injured me ... and after investigating what legal recourse I had for mistakes he would not take responsibility for, I found that the laws regulating DCs in NC were written by DCs. Guess how much liability they volunteered to accept for their mistakes? So much for the good ol' South.
My GP is a very knowlegable fellow, and during the acute phase of my sciatica referred me to an osteopathic surgeon, who was very ready and willing to cut on me ... without offering any encouragement to try physical therapy or giving me a realistic appraisal of the potential risks of surgery. Thankfully, I was doing some of my own research and discovered options to surgery. Maybe the surgery would have worked out OK and I'd be praising my GP and OD, but I recovered with more conservative treatments options (PT mostly).
So I wish we did things differently down here. So far the differences I've discovered seem pretty trivial (y'all comin' down to the chicken-q?). But I think I get your main point - some folks do care, and are doing a good job. Yet, even though I'm in the South, I'm inclined to remember caveat emptor on all financial transactions.
Randolph
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redshoes
I have sciatica, a ruptured disc and several bulging discs. I just found this out from an MRI this week. I have a lot of sciatic pain. Prior to this I was doing PT and acupuncture. this was working for me until a recent flair up aggrivated by carrying a suitcase and sitting on a plane for many hours. Now my Doctor says no more PT or accupuncture and wants me to go to a chiropractor for decompression therapy. It sounds painful and costly. How can I get a handle on what will work best? I looked at the exercises in Rebuild your back. some of these are the same ones my PT gave me to do. However there is so much there--how do I know what to do and what will work best?
Hello again Redshoes
I've a more lengthy reply after your other post, but as to what to do. You mentioned in the other post, that you've downloaded Dean's book. That's a good place to start. Most of us seem to have to read it a few times to "get it". It also helps to spend a few hours reading posts from others who are recovering from sciatica, to get a handle on where to start and what to do.
Considering that you are having difficulty sitting, you might try setting up your computer on the floor so you can lie down in some way to use it. That helped me when sciatica pain prevented me from sitting.
Randolph
I've a more lengthy reply after your other post, but as to what to do. You mentioned in the other post, that you've downloaded Dean's book. That's a good place to start. Most of us seem to have to read it a few times to "get it". It also helps to spend a few hours reading posts from others who are recovering from sciatica, to get a handle on where to start and what to do.
Considering that you are having difficulty sitting, you might try setting up your computer on the floor so you can lie down in some way to use it. That helped me when sciatica pain prevented me from sitting.
Randolph
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DrWill
Hey Redshoes,redshoes wrote:I have sciatica, a ruptured disc and several bulging discs. I just found this out from an MRI this week. I have a lot of sciatic pain. Prior to this I was doing PT and acupuncture. this was working for me until a recent flair up aggrivated by carrying a suitcase and sitting on a plane for many hours. Now my Doctor says no more PT or accupuncture and wants me to go to a chiropractor for decompression therapy. It sounds painful and costly. How can I get a handle on what will work best? I looked at the exercises in Rebuild your back. some of these are the same ones my PT gave me to do. However there is so much there--how do I know what to do and what will work best?
I personally own and operate a clinic utilizing spinal decompression on the DRX9000 machine. I am a chiropractor. I can tell you the spinal decompression is terrific treatment for patients with disc related problems. The results I have had with patients is quite amazing.
The treatment, however, is not cheap or simple to go through. You will have out-of-pocket expense, in the range of several thousand dollars, depends on your area what exact figure is. You'll have several sessions of the decompression, 20-30 over 4-6 weeks. After your competent chiropractor (let the jeers commence) determines you are suitable for the treatment - take his/her recommendations and try it. It sure is better than surgery - the worse that will happen is it simply wont work for you. It wont hurt or paralyze you or any other serious consequence you can have after surgery. Bottom line: you have a better chance of it helping you than not. Good luck.
DrWill
Hi DrWill,
Thank you for your opinion, I'm sure it was given with at least one person's best interests in mind.
However, at the risk of repeating myself, allow me to repeat what I wrote in another thread on this same subject...
"Spinal decompression is important and should be part of any rebuilding program. That's why I include exercises that accomplish this in the book.
Traction devices like the DRX-9000 are simply overblown gimmicks designed to get your money. Yes, they work. But you can do the same thing even better on your own for free, so why spend upwards of $4000?
With the Spinal Decompression clinics you only get roughly 20 sessions of "therapy" for a limited period of time... a couple of weeks... and it costs a small fortune.
Your body needs ... and deserves ... more than that.
If you learn a few simple exercises, you can do it yourself for a lifetime ... and like I said before ... entirely for free.
I have nothing against the DRX-9000. I think it's very pretty."
What I'd like to know is how many people find themselves with disc problems again 6 months to a year after treatment on the DRX?
I have a hunch it's pretty close to 100%.
Dean
Thank you for your opinion, I'm sure it was given with at least one person's best interests in mind.
However, at the risk of repeating myself, allow me to repeat what I wrote in another thread on this same subject...
"Spinal decompression is important and should be part of any rebuilding program. That's why I include exercises that accomplish this in the book.
Traction devices like the DRX-9000 are simply overblown gimmicks designed to get your money. Yes, they work. But you can do the same thing even better on your own for free, so why spend upwards of $4000?
With the Spinal Decompression clinics you only get roughly 20 sessions of "therapy" for a limited period of time... a couple of weeks... and it costs a small fortune.
Your body needs ... and deserves ... more than that.
If you learn a few simple exercises, you can do it yourself for a lifetime ... and like I said before ... entirely for free.
I have nothing against the DRX-9000. I think it's very pretty."
What I'd like to know is how many people find themselves with disc problems again 6 months to a year after treatment on the DRX?
I have a hunch it's pretty close to 100%.
Dean
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DrWill
Dean -Dean wrote:Hi DrWill,
Thank you for your opinion, I'm sure it was given with at least one person's best interests in mind.
However, at the risk of repeating myself, allow me to repeat what I wrote in another thread on this same subject...
"Spinal decompression is important and should be part of any rebuilding program. That's why I include exercises that accomplish this in the book.
Traction devices like the DRX-9000 are simply overblown gimmicks designed to get your money. Yes, they work. But you can do the same thing even better on your own for free, so why spend upwards of $4000?
With the Spinal Decompression clinics you only get roughly 20 sessions of "therapy" for a limited period of time... a couple of weeks... and it costs a small fortune.
Your body needs ... and deserves ... more than that.
If you learn a few simple exercises, you can do it yourself for a lifetime ... and like I said before ... entirely for free.
I have nothing against the DRX-9000. I think it's very pretty."
What I'd like to know is how many people find themselves with disc problems again 6 months to a year after treatment on the DRX?
I have a hunch it's pretty close to 100%.
Dean
I wholeheartedly agree with your advice about exercising to maintain a lifetime healthy spine. Problem sir is this: who really does it? You are advocating preventive maintenance on your spinal muscles - if the majority of people actually performed exercises and stretches like you suggest - I would have no job, nor would PTs, DOs, MDs and any other health care professional who deals primarily with back pain.
If simple exercising to strengthen spinal muscles could solve back pain - why do I see so many failed cases that have had traditional medical protocol? Medical protocol to the best of my experience is: 1st - muscle relaxers and pain medication; 2 - several weeks of PT; 3 - surgical consult and potential surgery (if severe enough); 4- pain management.
Step 2 in the above example should alleviate a tremendous amount of suffering in people.
What is your suggestion for the chronic person who is in too much pain to exercise? Or, the person who is in dire pain but not yet eligible for a surgery? Do you suggest exercise will relieve the pain and radiculopathy associated with several herniated discs, or facet syndrome? I think you may be giving preventative activity more credit than its due.
An analogy if you will: once the cavity has been formed, no amount of brushing or healthy gum activity will fix it.
To answer your question: The DRX patients I have treated who relapse into more pain do so for many different reasons - reasons they have brought upon themselves, not due to bad, useless or sham treatment on the DRX.
Examples: 1. obese patients, 2. heavy laborers, 3. chronic back pain patients whose spines are in horrible shape. All the good advice in the world will not change the behavior of some people.
I could not and would not advocate any treatment I felt was a sham/money making scheme.
Honestly I would be hard pressed to give you a % of failed cases. Former patients don't drop by the office or call me up to say their treatment failed.
One thing I would keep in mind as well - you are putting an unnecessary high amount of emphasis on the $cost of DRX treatments. A person is not treated for 2 weeks - its between 4-6 weeks. What does a single night in the hospital cost? A single ambulance ride? A BACK SURGERY WITH poor SUCCESS cost? Medicare reported 2 years ago average paid out per case was $17000? I'm sure you've seen these numbers and know exactly what I am speaking about. $4-5k on 1 month of back treatment with great success is not asking that much. If a patient can accomplish their own back treatment with exercise and stretching - EXCELLENT! What about those that cant/wont?
DRX is not traction regardless of what the FDA 510k clearance is. If it were, the patients who have had traction at the PT/rehab center would never present to this office and have success on the DRX. They would have already had it. Chiros and PTs have been using traditional traction for YEARS - why does it have limited success?
Bottom line: DRX works and people are happy... where's the problem?
I hope I have answered your question and not been offensive - I like "clean" debates.
Dr. Will
Dr Will and Dean-- thanks for the interchange. It is all helpful. In reply to the question about whether one will continuue to do exercise--I think one will do so when you know WHAT to do and how to do it and what is at stake if you don't do it. the problem is there is too little guidance for the average person aside from finding RYB on this website. As far as costs go, I don't know what surgery would cost, but I do know my medical insurance would cover a lot of it. On the other hand I found that Spinal decompression would cost $100 per treatment. The MAMUM my insurance would pay is $9 per treatment. So the bottom line for me is it is very expensive. And unlike RYB exercises, there is no guarantee that I woudn't end up having to do it again or something worse like surgery as ther is no continuing program to strengthen my back. It is only treating symptoms. this seems to be very common in western medicine and unfortunately very costly. I just found out last week that my younger brother has 3 herniated discs and opted for laser surgery. He does have a physically demanding job. It will be interesting to hear how it worked for him. I have also talked with others who had surgery and now have a different back pain, and as Dr wills says they quit doing exercises as soon as they started feeling better. I just don't think people realize why you need to do exercises for life.
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DrWill
Redshoes - I appreciate your situation - I see it regularly. My only suggestion is to consider all types of treatment available to you. If you believe RYB exercises will work for you - do it faithfully and try it - they certainly wont hurt you. Consider chiropractic, acupuncture and spinal decompression. All different types of treatment have success - there is never a guarantee and not all treatments work for everyone.redshoes wrote:Dr Will and Dean-- thanks for the interchange. It is all helpful. In reply to the question about whether one will continuue to do exercise--I think one will do so when you know WHAT to do and how to do it and what is at stake if you don't do it. the problem is there is too little guidance for the average person aside from finding RYB on this website. As far as costs go, I don't know what surgery would cost, but I do know my medical insurance would cover a lot of it. On the other hand I found that Spinal decompression would cost $100 per treatment. The MAMUM my insurance would pay is $9 per treatment. So the bottom line for me is it is very expensive. And unlike RYB exercises, there is no guarantee that I woudn't end up having to do it again or something worse like surgery as ther is no continuing program to strengthen my back. It is only treating symptoms. this seems to be very common in western medicine and unfortunately very costly. I just found out last week that my younger brother has 3 herniated discs and opted for laser surgery. He does have a physically demanding job. It will be interesting to hear how it worked for him. I have also talked with others who had surgery and now have a different back pain, and as Dr wills says they quit doing exercises as soon as they started feeling better. I just don't think people realize why you need to do exercises for life.
Please do me this favor: DO NOT make the mistake so many people make - decide which treatment is best for you based heavily on financial cost. True, your back surgery may cost you less money out of pocket up front (co-pay). That isn't always, or even usually the case though. This year I treated a patient (with great success) who underwent hemilaminectomy at L5-S1 last year. He had relief for slightly less than 3 months. With his blue cross insurance covering, his out of pocket expense was still in the neighborhood of 7-8k. (I saw the bills). When you factor in all the "nickel and dimeing" healthcare costs today its incredible. All the different aspects of your surgery will cost you different amounts - the surgeons fees might be covered, but is the anesthesiologist, or the hospital stay, or the PT afterwards, or the medications you'll be on, or the lost time from work? God forbid there is a complication? And finally.... you've got a 50% chance its going to work. Further, your risks are HUGE.
Make your decisions based on what you think will serve you the best - if all costs were equal - whats the best for you. You only get 1 spine in life and we haven't developed a tech yet to replace one when it wears out.
There are no guarantees for any treatment. If you think RYB exercises are guaranteed... think again. If you think spinal decomp, chiro, surgery, PT, cortisone shots are guaranteed, think again.
Just to interject - any decent surgeon or spinal decomp office SHOULD have continuing back stretching/strengthening programs for you to do LONG after initial treatment is rendered.
One final comment - this will probably provoke a response from Dean - take the rampant anti-chiro sentiments of this website with a microscopic grain of salt. The falsehoods and misleading comments listed here are no more than the angry rantings of some dissatisfied customers. You can find this type of talk for ANY product or service available. Find a forum about Ford trucks, Dell computers, Sony TVs, ABC lawncare company - you name it - you'll hear this crap. Chiropractic has been around for over 100 years, its effectiveness has been proven countless times. Its available worldwide, its the number 1 alternative healthcare choice in this country. It has been approved by medicare/medicaid and every major HMO, its regulated by a national board and state boards in every state. Lots and lots of very intelligent, well educated, well meaning people approve it and condone it. (steps off soap box now...lol)
Good luck -
Dr.Will
Note From Admin: I have a better idea... take EVERYTHING you read with a grain of salt. Don't accept excuses or unsubstantiated claims. Always do your own research... always get the facts... and always consider the source. Everyone has a bias -- including me.
My articles on chiropractic contain an abundance of links to the original source material so you can verify how I arrived at my conclusions. It's very easy to research this subject on the web.
I find it interesting that the chiropractor's advice is always "just try it," they never suggest you look into it first.
My advice is ... before you spend your money and risk your health ... research it. I guarantee you will not be bored. There is an abundance of very entertaining, enlightening and factual material available.
If you consider carefully what both sides have to say, I have every confidence you will arrive at the truth.
-- Dean
Here's a good place to start:
Don't I Need a Chiropractor?